The Concilium of Omaha

[altaica]

Wow,
What fantasy realm do you live in Rown? Sounds fucking wonderful. The good old U.S has slavery, people just don't realize it because they get little pieces of paper to make them feel better about getting screwed or the politicians hide it with flowery little words. Sure they get to chose their flavor of slavery but take a trip to one of the city slums someday. Hmm, rich using the poor for their own ends and means, sounds a lot like the world just puts a different spin on the same old shit.

Far as I feel it thrall is a valid punishment. It's repayment of your debt to the one you have wronged, eye for an eye and all that. It's like serving a time in prison, you do the crime you do the time. I don't know what kind of pansy-assed influence has been infecting some of the orders, but we are here because of tradition and we have a role. Why does it seem so many have forgotten the roles of the Wings, Voice, Talons and Eyes of the Dragon and why are so many of the members of these orders leaving tradition behind for a line of political bullshit that has a history of failing. Oh wait, it's because tradition and history is getting thrown out the window along with the long standing tradition of mentor and student.

There's an old addage, If it's not broke, don't fix it.

Mandlebrot

[Scott]

I suppose it's too much to ask for a "civilized" debate, huh? I mean, god forbid that we fall down the well of name-calling, finger-pointing, and outright cynicism. There have been good points brought up..*on both sides*. And, once again, I'll say this.... I don't think anyone said word one about ditching tradition outright. Not one person has said "Let's just say ta hell with it and do things our own way, without any regard to what the Magey types in the past have worked and died for".

Be that as it is.... No matter what side of the proverbial "fence" we all sit on, there ain't SHIT going to get done, nor problems that we ALL face get solved if we can't learn to at least work together. At least for a time.

Some of us want to get back to tradition? Fine. Then lets get a traditional Consillium up and running again. Or at the very least, lets solidify whatever form of "government" we're supposed to have, get our collective asses together, and figure out what we have to do to get rid of Tenebrous! Yeah...cuz he's still out there. And while we're busy telling each other we're full of shit...he's out there laughing at us.

-Phoenix

[isaacwelch]

The differnce is I don't live in a fantasy world. I keep being misquoted here and misrepresented. I agree that Thralls for punishment is better than death, but soulstones can be stolen as well. Should we allow a Mage who has offered there Desmense to all Mages of the area to keep Paradox at bay, and keep the Abyss from looming further only to have there stone stolen by an over zealous and jealous Mage and say: "it's Okay.. theft is okay" That part I disagree with. I split the hairs of the argument and don't make blanket statements for a reason. Nothing is black and white for me. I am Awakened and I can see that many things influence something. Not just one aspect. Hence why my arguments are more to the point.

I never said anything about economic oppresssion. Yet I am misquoted as talking about that as well.

I hate us being at each others nerves very few have met me and make assumations of who and what I am. I am misquoted and misrepresented here. Meet me first then make you accusations before you hurl stones and insults. Plus I am not picking fights with anyone why are people picking a fight with me?

So we as a society of Mages are we saying yes it is Okay to steal another Mages soulstone and keep him as your pet cause that is the point I have been trying to make and it has gotten way over argued and way overblown.

I am not tryting to throw out Traditon. I just hope that we screw each other over less and take care of.. I don't know Seers of the Throne, Banishers and Acamoth spirits and Abyssal things.. more than throwing around half-truths and inneundo about what I present as my opinions here.

I have been more than civil to either one of you. My patinecne is gettign thin and I am more than suggesting we split our two areas now. I don't want to do it, but I am tired of the insults. It's uncalled for and unwarranted. I have offered nothing to change tradition, but made a minor adjustment to something we are allowed to ammend anyway.

Look at the Lex it has changed in the last year alone. Don't say its tradition when it has been channged and ammened it is not set in stone, it is fluid and ever changing, and traditons change. I'd rather see us united as a Mage society as whole than we argue over little details. So let's try something new. Let's work together. Or split our territories cause it might be better to do so if we can't even get a Hierarch named....

From,

Rown-Skuld

[isaacwelch]

Second point to make. Don't make blanket statements about the roders when I have my own opinions and my own thoguhts and ideas. I don't represent the Mysterium i am not a Censor nor am I a Councilor. Yet, I feel we need to be more unified and less devisive. At least that part we can all agree on right?

From,

Rown-Skuld

[isaacwelch]

Thirdly,

I move that we remove the size limitation of a Cabal inthe our Lex Magica. Visiting Archmages have even said it is peculiar law having no precident anywhere else it stands up as a city peculiarity that is not worth following as it has no purpose. I say we toss that out completely. It's not even being followed by the three known cabals in the area. So ALL Mages in our area are in violation of the Lex Magica as it stands.

From,

Rown-Skuld

[chris]

It is considered a Grave offense to break the following rules that are in place. These are considered the Grave Lex Arcana.
- Murder (premeditated or Serial Killing) of a Mage or another Awakened Being (sleep Walkers included) without going through proper procedure.
- Casting Vulgar magic that leaves behind enduring evidence of magic; even if the disbelief of a sleeper eventually destroys such evidence.
- Aiding of a Banisher, Seer of the Throne, or Tremere–Lich
- Practice of Living Sacrifices
- Removing a Soul from a Sleeper or Awakened Being without Permission of the Council.

Punishment is suggested to range from Servitude (Life), Soul being place in a Soul Stone, Exile from the Consilium.

Rown there are many ways to skin a cat, I here some of the thyrsus are still counting them. The punishment you speak of is the theft of a soul stone...do you see what the punishment is for stealing a soul? Can you draw your own conclusion here? There is a trial for these offences and we make shure that the truth and justice is upheald at least in our hallowed halls. I do hope you are able to withstand the harsh criticism that has and will follow those that flaunt tradition. You are not being misquoted you are being paraphrased and when you paraphrase a metaphor there is bound to be some misinterpretation. Yes we have have the ability to alter our document. Yes we altered it. Yes we will again. The trouble comes when people begin misrepresenting truth.

Who told others we where a council?

Was it some one who beleived enough in the document to have bound themselves to it?

When would you like to talk?

What madlebbrot is saying is people are slaves to money.

Getting a heirarch named? Please do elaborate.

Mike Brown

P.S. Brilliant thought on the cabal size...I never understood that one either.

[isaacwelch]

See Mike now we are getting down to some good debate. I am suggesting we get our councilors named openly once again. We need to get some of the kinks in our society worked out. Get more unified and get after those that would continue aiding the Lie, and the Exarchs' servants who started ita nd perpetuate it, less at each other more at them..

I nominated somebody within the Mysterium and I suggest everyone do the same. I suggest each order at least begin the process of nominating councilors within each order once again.

I also suggest we start nominating a Hierarch as well. I nominated Phoenix.

I suggest we in Lincoln meet on the Saturday before the Fall Equinox. I know some of us have buisness in Omaha as well and we have some secretaries and Proctors to help keep communication going. I suggest for those who can make it sometime on the 8th of September, where do you guys meet up there? Put out a place that everyone feels safe at.

I suggest Hawthorne and Adversary help in this venture. They could both help keep notes and track motions and nominations for Hierarch.

Both I know make it back and forth to the two areas, and that way we can come to a consensus. Also, we could ammend the Lex Magica as needed.

I think after taking another look my only concern is that the Hierarch should have sort of Veto power befitting such a title. As it is written the Hierarch is a figurehead with little power. Plus a process to have one named through an election process would be nice. It doesn't have be total democracy, but the ones who can garner the most respect from all Mages will be chosen through that method. It works well enough.

We are on the right path now. This is a good start.

Phoenix, can we use your foundation as a meeting point on Staurday the 22nd or 23rd I can't remember the day, here in Lincoln?

From,

Rown-Skuld

[Scott]

I've got no problem with everyone meeting here at the Foundation. That's what it's here for. Well....partly, anyway.

-Phoenix

[isaacwelch]

I suggest on the Saturday before the Equinox we get our ideas from the Omaha area Mages on the 8th when they are meeting and then we add and some things to it. I have some ideas about wanting to ammend the Lex Magica to allow the Hiearch to not vote when a tie can occur but to give them Veto power over any motions the Council approves that way a vote is never deadlocked and action must take place or the Hierarch Vetoes it entirely.

Also allowing the Councilors of each Order to have certain responsilbilites to the Consilium say for instance these:

-Mysterium- Influence over Mystical Happenings
-Silver Ladder- Keeping the Consilium Orderly and everyone well informed (save for what the Herald does)
-Guardians- Has the Veil to watch over
-Adamantine Arrow- Security and Defensiveness of the Consiluim
-Free Council- Scientific Happenings and such


These are like the official lines for each Councilor for the Orders to take.

Also, The Unaffiliated to any Order. I know other Consiliums devide there Council based on Paths so that all Mages have a representative, but when you split it based on Order, the Unaffiliated have no representation. I feel the duty of the Hierarch should double in that area and the Hierarch is essentially the Councilor for the Unaffiliated (apostates.. but I hate that word it means blasphemous and traitorous things.. I prefer unaffiliated.)

Lastly having a requirement for the Council to meet Bi- Monthly in each city of Omaha and Lincoln, for instance. All odd months January, March, etc. The council meets in Omaha. All even Months February, April etc. They meet in Lincoln. This makes sure the council has some direction of when and where they meet. Plus maybe some sort of point of order allowing the Council to attend matters smoothly and effiecently so it doesn't bog down. Plus make the meeting open to all Mages that attend the site so that. Similiar to any Legislative body.

Also no votes in abstentia. If a second or a councilor is unavailble or no representative was named in advance then no vote can be garnered that meeting.

Also allow for some way for each order to remove its Councilor if they are lax in there duties say.. absenteeism. If you are councilor show up! Or name an active second. Just some ideas to keep things on the up and up.

From,

Rown-Skuld
AC/DC
Mysterium